{"id":12342,"date":"2025-06-19T07:18:59","date_gmt":"2025-06-19T14:18:59","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/jasonsblog.ddns.net\/?p=12342"},"modified":"2025-06-25T16:11:26","modified_gmt":"2025-06-25T23:11:26","slug":"fedora-silences-support-for-xorg-fork-but-other-distros-voice-support","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/jasonsblog.ddns.net\/index.php\/2025\/06\/19\/fedora-silences-support-for-xorg-fork-but-other-distros-voice-support\/","title":{"rendered":"Fedora Silences Support for Xorg Fork, But Other Distros Voice Support"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<p>This is a good report on the situation of a Fedora project member submitting a proposal to replace X11 with XLibre on Fedora. And it&#8217;s also funny that Xorg has released a couple bug fix versions to try to make it appear they&#8217;re actively working on the project now that the fork appeared, though there must have been an issue with the first one because the second came almost immediately. Consequently, this is all funny because Fedora is really the community testing distribution for Red Hat Linux, and controlled by Red Hat and IBM. And censorship and blocking is taking place with some initial comments, but pay close attention to the weaponization of the Code of Conduct group who adjudicate without any transparency, and ignore actual violations by others who fit the megacorp&#8217;s agenda. In a previous <a href=\"https:\/\/jasonsblog.ddns.net\/index.php\/2025\/06\/17\/x11libre-vs-wayland\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">post<\/a> I included the Kicad XLibre mailing list post with link to the blog article along with a couple really good articles on the whole situation, but I&#8217;ll include the blog post below referenced in the video report. And it&#8217;s worth pointing out this is an excellent example of <a href=\"https:\/\/jasonsblog.ddns.net\/index.php\/2025\/06\/11\/forked-off-xlibre-tells-wayland-display-protocol-to-die-in-a-fire\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">megacorps in the free software and opensource community showing which tech journalists are compromised<\/a> by their coverage of this fork and why the fork took place.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n<iframe loading=\"lazy\" title=\"Fedora Silences Support for Xorg Fork, But Other Distros Voice Support\" width=\"1290\" height=\"726\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/lNp4jjW_Xgw?feature=oembed\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share\" referrerpolicy=\"strict-origin-when-cross-origin\" allowfullscreen><\/iframe>\n<\/div><\/figure>\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-ub-divider ub_divider ub-divider-orientation-horizontal\" id=\"ub_divider_6e26351c-643a-4d63-99e4-43ac9f43c1e5\"><div class=\"ub_divider_wrapper\" style=\"position: relative; margin-bottom: 2px; width: 100%; height: 2px; \" data-divider-alignment=\"center\"><div class=\"ub_divider_line\" style=\"border-top: 2px solid #ccc; margin-top: 2px; \"><\/div><\/div><\/div>\n\n\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/www.kicad.org\/blog\/2025\/06\/KiCad-and-Wayland-Support\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">https:\/\/www.kicad.org\/blog\/2025\/06\/KiCad-and-Wayland-Support\/<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n<h1 class=\"wp-block-heading\">KiCad and Wayland Support<\/h1>\n\n\n\n<p>Written by&nbsp;The KiCad Development Team<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Published 2025-06-10<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>The KiCad development team frequently receives questions about our support for Wayland. Given that <a href=\"https:\/\/pagure.io\/fesco\/issue\/3408\">Fedora<\/a> and <a href=\"https:\/\/discourse.ubuntu.com\/t\/ubuntu-25-10-drops-support-for-gnome-on-xorg\/62538\">Ubuntu<\/a> are both planning to drop X11 support from their main desktop environments in the near future, we want to provide clear, transparent guidance to our users about the current state of Wayland support in KiCad.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"_current_status_is_functional_but_degraded\">Current Status Is Functional but Degraded<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<p>KiCad does run on Wayland systems, but with significant limitations and known issues that substantially degrade the user experience. While you can design PCBs using KiCad on Wayland, you will encounter numerous problems that we cannot fix at the application level.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>The following problems are known issues in Wayland protocols or their implementation in desktop compositors, window managers or other layers in the display stack that are beyond our ability to resolve:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"_window_management_issues\">Window Management Issues<\/h3>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li><em>Window placement and restoration<\/em>: Wayland does not currently allow controlling window position. This means that when you open KiCad, it can not remember where you last placed your windows.<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li><em>Docked panel positioning<\/em>: Docked panels and toolbars cannot be properly managed or restored<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li><em>Multi-window coordination<\/em>: Problems with managing multiple KiCad windows simultaneously<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li><em>Window dragging limitations<\/em>: Dragging tabs and panels between areas is broken or unreliable<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"_input_and_interaction_problems\">Input and Interaction Problems<\/h3>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li><em>Cursor\/pointer warping<\/em>: Essential for many CAD operations, it is conditionally available in some Wayland implementations, depending on support for optional protocol extensions<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li><em>Focus management<\/em>: Unpredictable window focus behavior that can interrupt workflows<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li><em>Input device handling<\/em>: Various issues with specialized input devices and hotkeys<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"_performance_and_stability_issues\">Performance and Stability Issues<\/h3>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li><em>OpenGL call throttling<\/em>: When windows are occluded, some compositors throttle OpenGL calls, causing freezes, instead of just letting the client know the window state<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li><em>High CPU\/GPU usage<\/em>: Resource consumption spikes that don\u2019t occur under X11, which is a workaround for OpenGL call throttling<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li><em>Graphical glitches<\/em>: Rendering artifacts and display corruption<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li><em>Application freezes and crashes<\/em>: Instability issues specific to the Wayland environment<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li><em>Clipboard functionality<\/em>: Unreliable copy\/paste operations between applications<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"_dialog_and_ui_limitations\">Dialog and UI Limitations<\/h3>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li><em>Modal dialog behavior<\/em>: Issues with dialog positioning, focus, and interaction<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li><em>External tool integration<\/em>: Problems launching and managing external applications<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"_why_these_issues_persist\">Why These Issues Persist<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<p>These problems exist because Wayland\u2019s design omits basic functionality that desktop applications for X11, Windows and macOS have relied on for decades\u2014things like being able to position windows or warp the mouse cursor. This functionality was omitted by design, not oversight.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>The fragmentation doesn\u2019t help either. GNOME interprets protocols one way, KDE another way, and smaller compositors yet another way. As application developers, we can\u2019t depend on a consistent implementation of various Wayland protocols and experimental extensions. Linux is already a small section of the KiCad userbase. Further fragmentation by window manager creates an unsustainable support burden. Most frustrating is that we can\u2019t fix these problems ourselves. The issues live in Wayland protocols, window managers, and compositors. These are not things that we, as application developers, can code around or patch.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>We are not the only application facing these challenges and we hope that the Wayland ecosystem will mature and develop a more balanced, consistent approach that allows applications to function effectively. But we are not there yet.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"_our_approach_and_policy\">Our Approach and Policy<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<p>The KiCad team has made the strategic decision to:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li><strong>Avoid window manager-specific workarounds<\/strong> that would require maintaining separate code paths for different desktop environments<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong>Continue building and testing<\/strong> Wayland compatibility where possible, but without dedicating primary development resources to it<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong>Focus our limited development time<\/strong> on features and improvements that benefit all users<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li><strong>Maintain clear documentation<\/strong> about Wayland limitations to set appropriate user expectations<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"_bug_report_policy_for_wayland_users\">Bug Report Policy for Wayland Users<\/h3>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>We do not investigate or support bug reports related to Wayland-specific issues.<\/strong> This includes problems with:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li>Window positioning, sizing, or focus<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>Application freezes or crashes that don\u2019t occur on X11<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>High CPU\/GPU usage unique to Wayland<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>Input device problems specific to Wayland<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>Graphical glitches or rendering issues<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>Clipboard functionality problems<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>Any other issues that cannot be reproduced on X11 systems<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n\n\n\n<p>Bug reports about KiCad\u2019s internal functionality that don\u2019t involve window management are still welcome and will be investigated normally.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"_recommendations_for_users\">Recommendations for Users<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"_for_professional_use\">For Professional Use<\/h3>\n\n\n\n<p>If you use KiCad professionally or require a reliable, full-featured experience, we strongly recommend:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<ol class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li>Use X11-based desktop environments such as:\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li>XFCE with X11<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>KDE Plasma with X11<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>MATE<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>Traditional desktop environments that maintain X11 support<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>Install X11-compatible display managers like LightDM or KDM instead of GDM if your distribution defaults to Wayland-only<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>Choose distributions that maintain X11 support &#8211; some distributions are moving to Wayland-only configurations that may not meet your needs<\/li>\n<\/ol>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"_for_casual_use\">For Casual Use<\/h3>\n\n\n\n<p>If you\u2019re willing to accept limitations and occasional frustrations, KiCad will run on Wayland. However, be prepared for:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li>Inability to restore your preferred window layouts<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>Occasional crashes or freezes<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>Reduced productivity due to interface limitations<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>Need to work around various UI quirks<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"_looking_forward\">Looking Forward<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<p>We recognize that the Linux desktop ecosystem is evolving, and we\u2019re not trying to stop that evolution. However, we believe that user productivity comes first &#8211; our users need to design circuit boards, not wrestle with experimental desktop technologies. Stability and reliability are paramount for professional work, and our limited development resources should focus on core functionality rather than working around protocol limitations.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>We continue to monitor Wayland development and welcome fixes from upstream projects. We\u2019ve engaged with desktop environment developers at conferences like FOSDEM and provided detailed feedback about our requirements. Some progress has been made (pointer warping protocols are finally being developed), but many fundamental issues remain unresolved.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"_contributing_to_solutions\">Contributing to Solutions<\/h3>\n\n\n\n<p>If you\u2019re a developer interested in improving Wayland support for KiCad there are several ways you can help:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<ol class=\"wp-block-list\">\n<li>Contribute to upstream projects: Help fix issues in Wayland protocols, window managers, or wxWidgets<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>Sponsor development: Companies that depend on both Wayland and KiCad can fund specific improvements<\/li>\n\n\n\n<li>Test and provide feedback: Help us identify which issues are most critical for your workflows<\/li>\n<\/ol>\n\n\n\n<p>We fund some wxWidgets development to help improve Wayland compatibility, but many issues require broader changes in the Wayland ecosystem. We encourage contributions that can benefit all applications, not just KiCad.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"_bottom_line\">Bottom Line<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<p>We try to be pragmatic. We support what works, we document what doesn\u2019t, and we focus our development efforts where they\u2019ll have most benefit for our users. We will adjust our position as Wayland improves, but we won\u2019t compromise the reliability and functionality of KiCad.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>For now, if you need to use KiCad on Linux, use X11.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<hr class=\"wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity\"\/>\n\n\n\n<p><em>The KiCad Development Team<\/em><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>This is a good report on the situation of a Fedora project member submitting a proposal to replace X11 with XLibre on Fedora. And it&#8217;s also funny that Xorg has released a couple bug fix versions to try to make it appear they&#8217;re actively working on the project now that the fork appeared, though there [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[6,7],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-12342","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-tech","category-world"],"blocksy_meta":[],"featured_image_src":null,"author_info":{"display_name":"Jason","author_link":"https:\/\/jasonsblog.ddns.net\/index.php\/author\/jturning\/"},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/jasonsblog.ddns.net\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/12342","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/jasonsblog.ddns.net\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/jasonsblog.ddns.net\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jasonsblog.ddns.net\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jasonsblog.ddns.net\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=12342"}],"version-history":[{"count":3,"href":"https:\/\/jasonsblog.ddns.net\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/12342\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":12503,"href":"https:\/\/jasonsblog.ddns.net\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/12342\/revisions\/12503"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/jasonsblog.ddns.net\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=12342"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jasonsblog.ddns.net\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=12342"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/jasonsblog.ddns.net\/index.php\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=12342"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}